Are you claiming Moses is still in the ground, although he spoke with Jesus long after his death? According to scripture, Enoch and Elijah acended to heaven. Jesus talked to Elijah long after his death too.
In John 3:13 Jesus was talking about teachers on earth who have never been to heaven. No one living on earth at that time, had ever been to heaven. Jesus pointed out that he was from Heaven and knows all about it, they don't.
You are also assuming that our perception of time is the same for the dead and Heaven. Time is obviously a physical construct created by God that changes depending on your velocity and the strength of the gravitational field you are in. It has been proven without a doubt this is true using high precision clocks. Time is physical, not spiritual. Space is a physical construct too. It is not what is left when there is nothing else, it is something in itself. If it was nothing, it could not be bent. It was proven long ago that space is bent by gravity using photographs of the stars around a full solar eclipse with a telescope.
It is very evident in the Bible that there are people who have passed on that are in heaven. I would argue that all saints who have passed on are in heaven and they are waiting in the grave, both.
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Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
-----
Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
-----
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
-----
Mark 9:42-48
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [a] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [b] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[c]
Footnotes
[a] Mark 9:44 Some manuscripts include here the words of verse 48.
[b] Mark 9:46 Some manuscripts include here the words of verse 48.
[c] Mark 9:48 Isaiah 66:24
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In John 3:16, the Koine Greek word "apollumi" that is translated into "perish" in the NIV, actually means "to lose, or to be lost". Perish in this context, does not mean to be annihilated out of exsistence in the spiritual realm.
You make the claim that what you believe are cold, hard facts, but your claims do not reconcile with other scripture.
In John 3:13 Jesus was talking about teachers on earth who have never been to heaven. No one living on earth at that time, had ever been to heaven. Jesus pointed out that he was from Heaven and knows all about it, they don't.
You are also assuming that our perception of time is the same for the dead and Heaven. Time is obviously a physical construct created by God that changes depending on your velocity and the strength of the gravitational field you are in. It has been proven without a doubt this is true using high precision clocks. Time is physical, not spiritual. Space is a physical construct too. It is not what is left when there is nothing else, it is something in itself. If it was nothing, it could not be bent. It was proven long ago that space is bent by gravity using photographs of the stars around a full solar eclipse with a telescope.
It is very evident in the Bible that there are people who have passed on that are in heaven. I would argue that all saints who have passed on are in heaven and they are waiting in the grave, both.
-----
Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
-----
Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
-----
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
-----
Mark 9:42-48
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [a] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [b] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[c]
Footnotes
[a] Mark 9:44 Some manuscripts include here the words of verse 48.
[b] Mark 9:46 Some manuscripts include here the words of verse 48.
[c] Mark 9:48 Isaiah 66:24
-----
In John 3:16, the Koine Greek word "apollumi" that is translated into "perish" in the NIV, actually means "to lose, or to be lost". Perish in this context, does not mean to be annihilated out of exsistence in the spiritual realm.
You make the claim that what you believe are cold, hard facts, but your claims do not reconcile with other scripture.
Are you claiming Moses is still in the ground, although he spoke with Jesus long after his death? According to scripture, Enoch and Elijah acended to heaven. Jesus talked to Elijah long after his death too. 😉
In John 3:13 Jesus was talking about teachers on earth who have never been to heaven. No one living on earth at that time, had ever been to heaven. Jesus pointed out that he was from Heaven and knows all about it, they don't.
You are also assuming that our perception of time is the same for the dead and Heaven. Time is obviously a physical construct created by God that changes depending on your velocity and the strength of the gravitational field you are in. It has been proven without a doubt this is true using high precision clocks. Time is physical, not spiritual. Space is a physical construct too. It is not what is left when there is nothing else, it is something in itself. If it was nothing, it could not be bent. It was proven long ago that space is bent by gravity using photographs of the stars around a full solar eclipse with a telescope.
It is very evident in the Bible that there are people who have passed on that are in heaven. I would argue that all saints who have passed on are in heaven and they are waiting in the grave, both.
-----
Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
-----
Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
-----
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
-----
Mark 9:42-48
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [a] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [b] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[c]
Footnotes
[a] Mark 9:44 Some manuscripts include here the words of verse 48.
[b] Mark 9:46 Some manuscripts include here the words of verse 48.
[c] Mark 9:48 Isaiah 66:24
-----
In John 3:16, the Koine Greek word "apollumi" that is translated into "perish" in the NIV, actually means "to lose, or to be lost". Perish in this context, does not mean to be annihilated out of exsistence in the spiritual realm.
You make the claim that what you believe are cold, hard facts, but your claims do not reconcile with other scripture.
Some cold, hard facts about the heaven and hell doctrine of modern churches and how neither of these ideas,about going to either place is actually supported in your Bible.
Nobody has ever gone to heaven...
John 3:13 (NIV)
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."
The dead sleep in the dust of the earth, in their graves until the resurrection when Jesus returns...
Daniel 12:2 (NIV)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The dead are in their graves when Jesus returns...
John 5:28-29 (NIV)
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
The dead will be raised back to life at the last trump (which is at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns)...
1 Corinthians 15:52 (NIV)
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, THE DEAD will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The dead have no thoughts, they know nothing...
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (NIV)
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
Jesus rules out of Jerusalem. Not in heaven...
Zechariah 14:16 (NIV)
Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the festival of tabernacles.
We rule over the nations on Earth with Him...
Revelation 2:26 (NIV)
To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
As for the wicked, they will be destroyed (PERISH) by fire, they don't get eternal life, so it kills them and this time, they are reduced to ashes and stay dead, never to live again.
Malachi 4:1-3 (NIV)
"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the Lord Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. Then you will trample on the wicked; THEY WILL BE ASHES under the soles of your feet on the day when i act," says the Lord Almighty.
The lake of fire is THE SECOND DEATH... death is death, it is not eternal life...
Revelation 21:8 (NIV)
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH."
It is extremely blasphemous to claim that God would horribly torture someone on fire for all eternity. And it is obviously proven false when scripture clearly states that ONLY THE RIGHTEOUS get eternal life. Not the wicked!
John 3:16 (NIV)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Now look up the word PERISH online, it means to be utterly destroyed, not live forever. Death is death, it is not eternal life on fire or otherwise.
Nobody has ever gone to heaven...
John 3:13 (NIV)
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."
The dead sleep in the dust of the earth, in their graves until the resurrection when Jesus returns...
Daniel 12:2 (NIV)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The dead are in their graves when Jesus returns...
John 5:28-29 (NIV)
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
The dead will be raised back to life at the last trump (which is at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns)...
1 Corinthians 15:52 (NIV)
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, THE DEAD will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The dead have no thoughts, they know nothing...
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (NIV)
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
Jesus rules out of Jerusalem. Not in heaven...
Zechariah 14:16 (NIV)
Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the festival of tabernacles.
We rule over the nations on Earth with Him...
Revelation 2:26 (NIV)
To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
As for the wicked, they will be destroyed (PERISH) by fire, they don't get eternal life, so it kills them and this time, they are reduced to ashes and stay dead, never to live again.
Malachi 4:1-3 (NIV)
"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the Lord Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. Then you will trample on the wicked; THEY WILL BE ASHES under the soles of your feet on the day when i act," says the Lord Almighty.
The lake of fire is THE SECOND DEATH... death is death, it is not eternal life...
Revelation 21:8 (NIV)
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH."
It is extremely blasphemous to claim that God would horribly torture someone on fire for all eternity. And it is obviously proven false when scripture clearly states that ONLY THE RIGHTEOUS get eternal life. Not the wicked!
John 3:16 (NIV)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Now look up the word PERISH online, it means to be utterly destroyed, not live forever. Death is death, it is not eternal life on fire or otherwise.
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